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Sunday, September 24, 2006

COLUMN: 700-MILE BORDER FENCE WILL BE A MONUMENTAL WASTE OF MONEY

White House spin doctors are painting it differently, but it's becoming increasingly clear that President Bush's Republican Party, forced to choose between courting Hispanic voters or the xenophobic right in the race for the Nov. 7 congressional elections, has opted for the latter. The Senate's decision to move ahead with plans to erect a 700-mile fence along the border with Mexico is a monumental waste of money. Read the full column here to find out why. Do you agree?

43 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

from Paul Thorsen
PThorsen240@aol.com

Oh, ao Andres, you somehwow think it is then up to the USA/Anglos to provide jobs for you Latin Americans and to make your countries prosperous? Uh, that is not our responsibiliy, it is up to you people to make your own countries prospeorus. We are not your babysitters. Yeah, the wall would be a waste of money because you people are desperate to get the hell out of your countries and pay your life savings to force your way into the USA. You cannot stop a people who desperately want the hell out of Latin America and when you have sympathetic Americans here who feel sorry for poor people.
Where you Hispanicks get into trouble in the USA is that you make no effort to fit in and join the USA as ALL other immigrants groups do. You people come to steal the USA from the Anglos and make White Americans foreigners in their own country. You people, refuse to speak English, you go all-out to force your language and culture on the USA, you people try to rewrite USA History to make it appear as if Hispanicks created the USA and portraying Anglos as a bunch of bumbling, dithering idiots. And then when you people settle a society in significant numbers, the area then becomes unlivable and the crime out of control, as happenned to great Indian societies in what is now Latin America. Besides, if we do take steps to make a prospeorus Latin America, the world will never ever hear the end of it of how great you people are and how you people made your own successful country.

2:43 PM  
Blogger hockey68 said...

...and people say that the anti-immigrant crowd is racist. Glad to see such a reasoned response from Paul, without any tinge of racism.

Hey Paul, that is sarcasm, you racist Anglo. Anglos like you are the disgrace of the US.

7:49 PM  
Anonymous Clarisa M. said...

Beyond a shadow of a doubt the 700-mile fence is a waste of money. Not only is do immigrants find ways of getting around this system, but also it only acts as a false "symbol" of what the United States, or more specifically, anti-immigrationists want. This is true because no matter what one says about the US having to "make jobs" for illegals, etc., the United States is dependent on the labor force, illegal and legal, which comes in as immigrants every day, every month, and every year. It is silly to even discuss this issue without bringing up the issue of California's economy, as well as places such as Texas, Arizona, Florida, Illinois, and even New York. Without the labor force which has been filled through these individuals, our country would enter a serious economic and employment crisis. If we were to ban them as some people would like, how would we fill these jobs? It is a well-known fact that most of these individuals are paid under the table and for lesser wages. While the immigrants are exploited, these jobs tend to offer them opportunities which they do not have in their "origin" countries and at the same time offer the United States a way to handle business in a less expensive manner. It appears to me rather ignorant to even discuss whether or not we should allow these individuals into the country... and rather the issue should be how we can make their lives, as workers for/of the United States, better.

9:40 PM  
Anonymous Clarisa M. said...

Beyond a shadow of a doubt the 700-mile fence is a waste of money. Not only do immigrants find ways of getting around this system, but also it only acts as a false "symbol" of what the United States, or more specifically, anti-immigrationists want. This is true because no matter what one says about the US having to "make jobs" for illegals, etc., the United States is dependent on the labor force, illegal and legal, which comes in as immigrants every day, every month, and every year. It is silly to even discuss this issue without bringing up the issue of California's economy, as well as places such as Texas, Arizona, Florida, Illinois, and even New York. Without the labor force which has been filled through these individuals, our country would enter a serious economic and employment crisis. If we were to ban them as some people would like, how would we fill these jobs? It is a well-known fact that most of these individuals are paid under the table and for lesser wages. While the immigrants are exploited, these jobs tend to offer them opportunities which they do not have in their "origin" countries and at the same time offer the United States a way to handle business in a less expensive manner. It appears to me rather ignorant to even discuss whether or not we should allow these individuals into the country... and rather the issue should be how we can make their lives, as workers for/of the United States, better.

9:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from: Paul Thorsen
PThorsen240@aol.com


Clarisa, I'm not sure there is a labor shortage in the USA. It looks as if Hispanicks are stealing jobs from Blacks. And employers are able to pay less to illegals than to Americans. I don't believe in any "labor shortage". But if it indeed can be estbalished that there is a labor shortage in the USA, then I want Filipinos and Southeast Asians brought in to do that work. I don't want a people here who hate the USA, who refuse to speak English and who only want to force their language and culture on the USA.

9:55 PM  
Blogger Samuel Logan said...

This is a heated debate to be sure, but I must agree with the belief that a fence is a waste of money.

Andres' mention of deepening existing free trade agreements with Latin American nations is not a bad idea, but unfortunately it's unrealistic.

US farm subsidies and import quotas are tough to move, and it's all very political, deemed by the needs of pork barreling and log rolling - back rooms deals made in DC to promote politics back home.

The same is true of politics concerning immigration and the border. A fence is a patch policy for a much larger social problem - largely Latino - with poverty and inequality.

The burden to reduce poverty and increase wages and employment is on individual governments. But as the leader of the Western Hemisphere (at least) and the main historical reason (consider alone Cold War era proxy wars) why much of Central and South America is troubled, the United States government should consider its southern neighbors not with fences but constructive policies.

After all, as more Latinos cross the border, and they will continue to do so, generations into the future we will see who's running Congress.

I'll not be surprised if there is a large and influential pro-Latino block in place. Either the USG does something now or watch it happen in the future. Enough with asinine policies like fences and troops on the border. It's a waste of time and money.

10:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The curious thing about a wall between Latin America and the USA is that China had a similar wall built in the 3rd century BC to keep out foreigners. That wall, the Great Wall of China, is now a national treasure and one of the great wonders of the world with billions of people all over the world going to China and having their pictures taken with the Great Wall in the background.

12:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from: Paul Thorsen
PThorsen240@aol.com

Hey Samuel Logan, to blame the USA/Anglos for all the problems in Central and South America, that is a bunch of garbage, and you know it. Any society is only as good as its people, and Latin America has as a majority of its people, a people of a violent and criminal nature, a direct consequence of Spain dumping its criminals and other derelicts onto their colonies in the Americas, sent there to steal gold from the Indians. A people who had no respect not only for the native peoples of the Americas, but no respect for their national art treasures, which were melted down for the sake of their bullion by the conquerors who saw in them only their intrinsic value of precious metals. As long as people like you blame the USA for all the problems in Latin America, the situation there will never change. Not until Latin Americans recognize the true nature of their problems and take strict measures to deal with it.

12:54 AM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

Estimado Andres:
Sigo lamentando que este mismo articulo de opinión que publicas, que teniendo el mismo texto en español, no tenga su respectivo weblog en español para aceptar comentarios en español; dándole de ese modo la posibilidad de comentar a hispanoparlantes del mundo entero. Es decir y para que no sea mal interpretado, que no vengo a pedirte que cambies la lengua de este país, ni a fomentar el español sino a permitir el intercambio de ideas. Un país bilingüe es mas culto.
Voy al punto y que da para muy largo.
Comenzamos con una cuestión de terrorismo que en 5 años se convirtió en una cuestión de odio racial y desprecio cultural contra el sector equivocado. Mientras se desea construir fronteras como la muralla China para evitar que entren esos "terroristas" que cosechan tomate, limpian pisos y baños, cuidan hijos de ciudadanos americanos, construyen edificios, cortan el césped de los jardines, recogen la basura; se envían alimentos, medicinas y ayuda de todo tipo a países amigos como Irán, Iraq, Afganistán o Paquistán y faltaría a Korea del Norte.
Toda la cuestión Migratoria se mezclo con el Terrorismo en una ensalada que nadie se preocupo de aclarar educando a ambas partes en el asunto. Curiosamente ambas partes no tienen nada que ver con el terrorismo.
¿Cual Mexicano, Cubano, Nicaragüense, Haitiano, Salvadoreño, Venezolano, Argentino, Colombiano, Brasileño, Peruano, o Latinoamericano estuvo involucrado en los ataques del 9-11 ? ¿Cual? ¿Quien fue?
Lo que es claro y notorio es que el Congreso y como vos lo afirmas a puesto los ojos solo en complacer lo que ellos creen que es la satisfacción del votante. Ellos comen de los votos. El hombre con el mas mínimo sentido común se da cuenta que lo que se reforzó fue el odio contra todo extranjero en América. Pero preferentemente con el de habla hispana. ¿cual terrorista hablaba español? ¿cual? ¿adonde esta?
Mientras esas fuerzas no-policiales preparan rifles para apuntarles a mexicanos que intentan entrar a pie con solo sus ropas como única carga, terroristas estarán preparándose para venir por aeropuertos, con pasaportes y dinero suficiente para no tener que trabajar limpiando pisos. ¿Que terrorista de los que participo en el 9-11 limpio pisos, cosecho naranjas o tomates, se metió dentro de un toilet a sacar los excrementos de un ciudadano americano? ¿cual? ¿ adonde esta?.
Y mientras se hacen redadas organizadas para causar pánico entre los trabajadores inmigrantes indocumentados creyendo que se combate al terrorismo, los terroristas reciben fondos mediante giros sin el mas mínimo inconveniente. ¿cual fue el latinoamericano y de que país que recibió dinero del terrorismo internacional para atentar contra este país? ¿cual? ¿adonde esta?
¿Que inmigrante ilegal no vino para otra cosa que no sea trabajar para si y mejorar su situación o para ayudar a su familia? ¿Y porque razón atentaría contra el país en el que esta trabajando?
Cuanto cinismo y cuanta mala educación.
Ya salieron publicadas en CNN las actividades de los inmigrantes indocumentados en varias oportunidades y ninguna se refiere al porcentaje de latinos que se dedican al terrorismo.
Y sin embargo salieron también en los periódicos los propios ciudadanos americanos transformados al islamismo por voluntad propia preparados para atentar contra su propia Nación.
Que falsedad e idiotez de argumentos pretenden creer que el latino vino a cambiar la lengua de este país. ¿quien obligó a que ciudadano americano a que le hable en español?
Que falsedad e idiotez de argumentos pretenden hacer creer que esos latinoamericanos vienen a reclamar para la corona española el territorio norteamericano. ¿que armas traen y que fundamentos legales e ideológicos?
Les permito que se rían un poco en este momento del comentario.
Un error interpretativo, del mismo modo en que en EEUU se insiste en la existencia de 7 continentes mientras en América Latina se enseña que solo hay 5; dice que el latino es "de baja educación", "ignorante".
Uds. se equivocan respetables ciudadanos americanos, cada etnia latinoamericana nos muestra en distintas facetas.
Mientras es probable que de México vengan trabajadores rurales en su mayoría, lo que indica que México tiene falencias en ese campo de la economía; de Brasil de Colombia, de Argentina han venido profesional con titulo Universitarios, Médicos, Abogados, Odontólogos, Ingenieros, Arquitectos, que no lograron satisfacer sus mas mínimas expectativas económicas en su país de origen y vinieron a trabajar.
Ninguno le robó ningún puesto a un ciudadano Americano. Ninguno que no haya hecho el tramite como corresponde logro revalidar su titulo en este país.
Eso si, los que lo hicieron no crearon una baja en las tarifas o costos de la medicina. ¿o bajó el precio de una dentadura en EEUU debido al ingreso de inmigrantes ilegales?
¿Que ciudadano blanco americano o negro americano busca trabajo recogiendo tomates? ¿cual?
Y entonces nos vamos enredando en una discusión que no tenia nada que ver con el terrorismo, lo ven. Lo ven!
Acusan sin fundamento al inmigrante ilegal de usar servicios médicos y elevar....¿elevar que?
¿Cuanto cuesta un transbordador en el espacio, una guerra en contra de los amigos Iranies, Korea, Vietnam, una frontera al sur?
¿7.000 millones de dólares? ¿No se podrían aplicar a la salud?
La falta de conocimiento en EEUU cataloga al inmigrante ilegal latinoamericano de "falto de cultura" y ya te mostré que se equivocan. Nadie parece saber de ellos que en Latinoamérica la educación en todos los niveles incluido el Universitario es gratuito en la mayoría de las especialidades.
Nadie parece saber de ellos que la Medicina Publica de países como Argentina es excelente en el nivel profesional y es gratuita.
Nadie sabe que con lo que aca vale un diente postizo en Colombia se hace una dentadura completa.
Y que tiene que ver esta estupidez que estoy diciendo con el Terrorismo. Que cinismo.
La inmigración ilegal ha sido por muchos años amparada por el ciudadano americano como algo común. ¿quien cree que ellos no saben que quien cuida a los bebes de famosos en Hollywood no son latinos indocumentados, junto con los que cuidan el jardín, los que trabajaban en Walmart, en....? ¿quien cree que no lo saben ni lo sabían?
Entonces para peor, ¿de que seguridad nacional se puede hablar con 12.000.000 de inmigrantes sin huellas digitales, sin conocer antecedentes....? pero va a resultar que habrán cometido algún delito pero ninguno será Terrorismo.
Excelente la nota Andres. Esa es la realidad. Solo han importado los votos.
Y muy pero muy interesante la propuesta de intercambio de atención médica.
Si van con el dinero en dólares, ningún hospital privado de primera categoría se negaría a atender a un extranjero sin mas requisitos de que deposite el dinero del tratamiento que además es seguro menos de la tercera parte de lo que se paga aquí en USA.
Y si el ciudadano americano anti-inmigrante duda de la calidad profesional del Médico Latinoamericano es bueno recordarles que los mejores profesionales del mundo viven en los Estados Unidos, pero no son nacidos en los Estados Unidos donde la educación no ha alcanzado los niveles que el país tiene por otro lado.
Empezamos con terrorismo y terminamos pegándole a nuestros hermanos porque quieren trabajar. Triste.

10:57 AM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

I do not blame USA for Latinamerican problems. But, what latinamerican illegal workers got to do with Terrorism?
Do the terrorists speak spanish? Did they mop floors, clean toilets?
Please say the name of the latinamerican illegal worker who accepted money from terrorism.
Please say how many latinamerican homeless are yo watching while you drive home.
How do you think illegal workers force you to speak spanish?
Stolen what? Your culture? See ya dancing salsa, merengue, bachata, See your wife, your girlfriend. Have you ever seen Mr. Jeb Bush's wife?
How many americans hospital can be helped with U$S 7.000.000.000?
White???? What the hell are you talking..?
You will not find any black man in Argentina, we do not need any white.! white what?
And what is the problem with black, white or brown???
You do not even see an elephant.
Latinamerica is all white, black, and brown..and what?
Have you ever seen the color of your scientists, ...!
Indian societies, ??!!
See the color of the best golf player of the world.
Colors???
See your basketball teams.
See your football teams.
See your baseball teams.
See your musicians.
See your President's Team.
We live in 2006. What color are you talking about?

12:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Mr. Thorsen,
The greatness in freedom of speech is that even people like you get a chance to speak their piece. Unfortunately, your piece is small, biased and embarrasing.
It's good you've read one book. You should try reading quite a few more. And, you also must learn to read between the lines. But in order to do this you first have to acquire a certain amount of culture.
I don't include my email as I have no interest to correspond with you. I wish you the best.

1:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thorsen makes me laugh. Once he mentioned Hispanics giving their children Spanish names as being somehow un-American. My son who is named Andrés spent four years in the Marine Corps. They didn't care what his name was.

Somehow my wife and myself just couldn't bring ourselves to give him a real American name like Billy Bob, Jimmy John, or Donny Ray, sorry.

3:21 PM  
Blogger roberto e said...

My God we have topic matter here for several articles

1 THe USA has a right to defend its borders

2 Has a right to control immigration thru a wall if neccessary
3 Has a right to not have a draft
so that poor Hispanics, poorBlacks and yes poor Whites serve as opposed to the Upper midddle and Upper class whites
like Hollywood,Silicone Valley and Wall St not serving their country in the war against terror and every other occasion from Vietnam to the present

4.Yes we immigrants take jobs and end up becoming citizens,prospering paying taxes and buying homes in Coral Gables for over $700,000
so that the previous Anglo owner
can afford to complain about us
at his new home in North Carolina which he could not afford if me or some other immigrant had not bought it from him at an inflated price due to IMMIGRATION
This has been going on since immigration started in this country

5. Yes the problems of LatinAmerica are not caused by the USA... but USA can help
thru investments,common sense foreign policy and thereby keeping potential immigrants at home
6 Damn it... it is all true

including the right to build a wall and the right to make an ass of yourself like Colorado's Tom Tancredo on the anti immigrant side and the leftist immigrant side groups who think they are re-colonizing America for the Aztecs when the Aztecs never made it north of Guanajuato and used to have everybody who wasn't an Aztec over for lunch LITERALLY!!!
Christ wake up and read folks!!!

9:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from: Paul Thorsen
PThorsen240@aol.com

hey anonymnous, did you know that Argentina had a law requiring all kids born in Argentina to be given a Spanish first name? Yes, you are correct, not giving your kids an American name does not necessarily mean such a person is anti-American. But that combined with other acts I see in the Hispanic community suggests it. Like how you people won't be caught dead waving a USA flag, how you people won't buy USA made cars, how you people boo USA international sports teams......
Hey anonymous, I was wondering, does the Chinese community in Cuba insist on giving their kids names like Wang-Chee and make damn sure their kids speak Chinese even after 100+ years in Cuba? Do they insist on using Chinese characters to write their names? Do they wave Chinese flags all over Cuba? Did you ever realize that of all the 100+ immigrant groups that have have come to the USA, the ONLY group that can't bear to give their kids American names are Hispanics?
Filipino-Americans have their own unique American names found only in the Filipino-American community, names like Marvalynn, Davalynn, Ranalynn, Johnalynn, Revelyn.......
Those names aren't "Anglo" names. I would give you $1,000 for anyone with any of those names who was born in England.

10:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from Paul Thorsen

roberto, the USA has gone all-out to try and create successful economies for you people in Latin America. We have set a minimum price that coffee will be purchased, even though we could get it much cheaper if we wanted to. We have created NAFTA, CAFTA, we allow you people to smuggle $40 billions of USA dollars out of the USA every year........
But I don't get it, you people claim to have created "modern Miami", claim to have made it "prospeorus", so surely you Hispanics should be able to do likewise in Latin America. Those two comments don't jive. Successful people create successful societies all over the world, not just in the USA. Anglos have created ultra-successful societies everywhere in the world they set up shop: Australia, Canada, the USA and New Zealand.

10:46 PM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

I do not think so.
Health and Education is a must for democracy all over the world. ¿did you solve this items?.
But, insist. Have you seen a spanish speaker teerrorist?

11:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from: Paul Thorsen

Eduardo, I have seen a Spanish speaking terrorist, one Jóse Padilla, a Muslim convert from Puerto Rico who trained in Afghanistan with Al-Qaeda.
I fully understand the hatred Arabs have of the USA, because we have always supported and armed their hated enemy, Israel, every step of the way. As the old adage goes, "the friend of my enemy is also my enemy".
I don't have a problem with that kind of hatred.
I do have problems with the hatred you Hispanics have of the USA because the hatred comes from a jealous rage that the "Anglos", who you Hispanic see as the hated historic rivals of your beloved Spaniards, have whipped you people in every conceivable way to the point that you Hispanics pay your life savings to be sneaked into Anglolandia, and you people feel tremendously humiliated and then hate. I have no tolerance for jealous hatred. Especially considering all the many good things Anglos have given the world that has made life better for all. And how they took you people out of poverty and gave you good lives by allowing you people to sneak in here and work our jobs. And you people thank them how? By refusing to acknowledge Anglos created the USA, by refusing to speak English, by blaming the USA for all the problems in Latin America, by booing USA international sports teams, by trying to wipe out the Anglo heritage of the USA and trying desperately to replace it with a Hispanic heritage, by waving foreign flags all over the USA...........
If you people want your own Spanish speaking country of your own that is a player on the world stage, you people can create your own such country instead of trying to steal the USA from the Anglos. The USA is their country. If you want into their country, you people speak their language and give your kids American names. You already have Spanish middle and last names, that gives you a Hispanic identity. If it is Inuit society in the Canadian Arctic you Hispanics pay your life savings to be sneaked into, then you give your kids names like Nanook and you speak their language, not forcing your names and language on societies you people force yourselves into. My God, you Hispanics wouldn't even let Filipinos have their own Filipino names in their own native, indigenous land, instead forcing Spanish names on them. Why can't Filipinos have beautiful last names like Batingan and Macadangdang in their own native land?

1:08 AM  
Blogger A.M. Mora y Leon said...

I live near the U.S. border with Mexico and for me this is an agonizing problem.

I see both sides.

On the one hand, Mexico won't lift a finger to disempower its local feudal fiefdoms that do so much to prevent jobs from being created in Mexico. That's one problem that is driving Mexico's ablest workers north here.

Two, Mexico also relies on currency devalution to enable its government to spend what it likes, with no corresponding increase in productivity. Instead, it gets its spending power by destroying the savings and wages of Mexico's honest people. Think that was a long time ago? Here is one ugly little unreported story about currency devaluation, including Mexico's from 1994: Once your wages get trashed into toilet paper value by currency devaluation, they don't recover. That's why poor Mexicans always say the lack of jobs is not the problem, it's mainly the low wages. Viva currency devaluation /s, so touted by the IMF and Fat Joey Stiglitz and other Clintonish devaluation lovers, THIS Mexican situation is what devaluation really means, up close, an intolerable disparity of wages in two countries for the same kind of work that does not go away.

I am also disgusted with the price people pay for illegal immigration here in the states. Cities like Van Nuys and San Ysidro are cesspools of poverty and crime because of all the illegal immigrants. The immigrants EARN their money here but they do not spend their money here, they spend it on new roofs in Zacatecas over in Mexico. You have these whole empty villages in Zacatecas with shiny new roofs and no people, while you have fourth world poverty in Van Nuys and Escondido and all over this coast, even though the people have are jobs. Something is wrong with this picture - it can be expressed in two words, illegal immigration. It is bad for everyone. It creates a welfare mentality in Zacatecas, where every non-productive person left home gets a new roof but produces nothing, plus lots of unearned wealth, and it puts the government to sleep, by creating a consumption culture without productivity, I can't say enough bad about this whole inhuman chattel setup of illegal immigration.

Meanwhile the only thing that really works at keeping the Mexican-side crime - the mafias, the smugglers, the lowlife out of the US - is a border fence. It worked in Palestine against suicide bombers, it worked in North Korea and Berlin at keeping locals in and it worked with the Great Wall of China to keep invaders out until it eventually was breached by the Mongols who took advantage of the free trade southern sung dynasty that was so focused on trade it neglected to guard against invasions. In short, fences work. So because they are effective, I support a fence.

But as I said, I am on the border, I live near it, I go to both sides. The people in Tijuana plead to me to not let them build that fence. They love the trade, they love the view of the states as their brother nation, they love the psychological closeness - trading as equals with the US, not having a relationship as supplicants. A fence would put a huge cloud over their interaction with us, drawing a godawful curtain of darkness and separation. It sounds like something small but it is not small, I have really listened to these people, they love us, and they love living near us and trading with us and talking to us and we love them right back. A fence would be a HORRIBLE thing to put up. We are just too close to them.

The whole thing gives me agony, I lean toward a fence but god I don't want to be out of the minds of my neighbors, be separated by a horrible Berlin style barrier. I want to be close to them, and to get closer.

This is one of the hardest things we have ever had to decide on.

2:51 AM  
Blogger roberto e said...

Thorsen, You had something to say
about everything except my Draft comment ,you must have read on-line about 20 year old Marine Rene Martinez from Miami killed in action today in Iraq while others pursue noble economic activities or play at Winged Foot .

Yes we made Modern Miami like the other groups made NY including some of the warts of any major city

The system of laws of the US is what permits the entrepernurial skills of any group to prosper,

As for the prospering Anglo world it also had its ups and downs
appeasement by Baldwin and Chamberlain lead to WW2
Roaring 20's to the Great Depression,
Bankruptcy from WW2 left England in ruins and Socialist
until Margaret Thatcher in 1979. ..
Canada's rebirth has to do with American energy demand not their dysfunctional socialism

New Zealand and Australia had many bouts with Socialism and did not truly begin their rise until Asian Demand for Natural Resources helped finance them out of the Fabian Hole they were in

See Thorsen anyone can have the facts at hand without being insulting
and being bitter unless one has such a ghost or illness that only prayer can help .
I sincerely hope that God can give you peace.
I do not think you will find it here at this site

3:22 AM  
Blogger roberto e said...

Regarding your comment on Padilla
you forget
The american Taliban ,the youth from
MiddleWhiteAmerica who went to
Afghan. train and met Osama Bin Laden

The Walker Family who having three Members in the US Navy all convicted of spying for the Soviet Union
Carl Haansen a FBI Agent convicted of spying for the Soviet Union and the successor Russian Federation
Aldrich Ames III CIA agent convicted of spying for Russia and others that spied for LIbya,
Jane Fonda,Tom Hayden, the SDS, the Weathermen,Timothy Mc Vey,The jerks from the Falcon and the Snowman
all homegrown traitors and
Now for thieves and Money launderers
Enron executives galore ,Arthur Anderson,World Comm,Global Crossing,Michael Milken,UBS,
,the ongoing backdating of options scandal.......
Thorsen I could not find a Gonzalez in the bunch at this high level of scum
Again Pray.... it is your only hope
for peace.

3:44 AM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

Ey you Roberto, congratulaciones en espanol y congratulations in english.

3:59 AM  
Anonymous Eduardo o Eddie said...

from: Paul Thorsen
PThorsen240@aol.com

hey anonymnous, did you know that Argentina had a law requiring all kids born in Argentina to be given a Spanish first name? Yes, you are correct, not giving your kids an American name does not necessarily mean such a person is anti-American.


No estás tan en lo cierto Thorsen.

Mr. Thorsen your information about Argentina (names) is not updated or is not accurate.
This is the law:
Las limitaciones que se imponen en la elección tienen que ver con:
Nombres extranjeros, a menos que sean los nombres de los padres del bebé, o que se hubieran castellanizado por el uso. Esto en la realidad ha caído en desuso, nombres como Nicol, Jessica, Gianna, suelen ser aceptados sin problemas.
Los nombres extravagantes, ridículos, que se consideren contrarios a las costumbres del país, que expresen o signifiquen tendencias políticas o ideológicas, o que resulten equívocos respecto del sexo. En el caso de los nombres que puedan resultar equívocos respecto al sexo, son admitidos si se acompañan con otro nombre que defina, por ejemplo María, María José (femenino), José María, (masculino)
Los apellidos como nombres.
Primeros idénticos nombres a los hermanos vivos. En la práctica suelen aceptarse ciertos nombres que se usan siempre con el segundo nombre, así puede que una niña se llame María Laura y su hermana María Inés o un varón Juan José y su hermano Juan Martín.
Más de tres nombres.
Si el Registro no acepta el nombre elegido, los padres pueden apelar la resolución ante la Cámara Nacional de Apelaciones en lo Civil dentro de los 15 días hábiles de notificadas.Hay jurisprudencia que indica que se admiten como nombres aquellos que pretendan ser impuestos para conservar una tradición familiar por su uso fehacientemente demostrado.El artículo 3 bis, incorpora el uso de los nombres aborígenes o derivados de voces aborígenes autóctonas y latinoamericanas.

1:35 PM  
Blogger A.M. Mora y Leon said...

Roberto E:

You left out Ana Montes, right there in the same league as Ames and Robert Hanssen.

Bad guys come in all nationalities. The whole issue is irrelevant to whether a border fence should be built.

2:34 PM  
Blogger roberto e said...

no Mr/MS Mora
actually its not irrelevant as if you can put Lou Dobbs on any night and see they are calling for a fence to keep out terrorists and Hispanic farm workers... and our friend the Imperial Wizard of the KKK mentioned Padilla because he is Hispanic....no other reason.

Just thought that Treason in this Republic started with Benedict Arnold and found its way thru our finest institutions and Universities thru a 200 year history mostly with the so called elite......Just like in England first during appeasement of the Nazis and later The 5 Eaton/Oxford bunch in MI-5 during the 70's and 80's including one knighted by the Queen!!!
Those that do not know one's history are condemned to repeat it!!
(Winston Churchill)
Cheers!!!!
Once in a blue moon you get one out of the elite!!like the Rosenbergs(approx 50 years ago)
As for Montes ...using her sick ideaology as an excuse she used her position in the Defense Dept. and her boyfriend at the America's Command to hurt our country
Ana Belen Montes she should have been executed as well as the other home grown appliance sounding names should have been . The others did it for Cash and sex but got more publicity because the major media outlets find no problem of spying for Cuba even if it meant revealing our proceedures,protocols and plans for dealing with terror threats as well as codes,agents in Cuba
and anti-terror measures at embassies world wide like she did

Her father a former senior Army officer was an exemplary man her mother a leftist who hated Conservative Cuban Americans
she sided with MOM!! and cited her as an inspiration at her trial
Thank you for reminding me !!!

9:30 PM  
Blogger roberto e said...

Andres ,speaking of visitors from Latin America that are a menance to the country and their own as well
We now have Chavez at War
so to speak with four Latin Countiries including Chile's new Socialist President here is some fodder for the next article if I may be so bold!!
Regards

9:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from: Paul Thorsen

Hey Leon Mora, the difference between Robert Hanssen and Ana Montes is that she did it out of hatred of the USA and a loyalty to the Hispanick World.
I am pretty sure Aldrich Ames did it because he was a nerd, he felt neglected by USA society, and all of a sudden , he was a very important man, the center of attention. He must have felt that for once in his life he was finally important. Isee them same thing in Hispanics. The same need to feel as if they matter in the world. They want to see the world want to speak their language and listen and dance to their music, but because it hasn't happened, they feel neglected and hate. Again, I don't really have a problem with that need to feel important. It's when you Hispanicks try to steal the USA and try to plagiarize their good work to gain world player status that I have problems.

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/03/21/Worldandnation/Come_clean_and_live__.shtml
March 21, 2002
Montes, a U.S. citizen of Puerto Rican descent, didn't spy for money. She did it because she opposed U.S. policy toward Havana, U.S. officials and her lawyer say.

10:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was born in cuba, but has lived in the states most of my life,, I believe that if you leave your country origin ,whatever the circunstaces you should adapt to your new country, and if you think that your country of birth is better the USa, them you should go back and fixed it so you can have your own country where you can critiz. The USA don't owe anything to Latin american countries, they have a lot resources and if according to Eduardo their education is better that the one we received here then Argentina is a paradise but it is not is a mess, because their leaders are corrupt and apperently, according to "Eduardo" the more education you have the more corrupt you are.I am all for legal emigration but ilegal immigration no and 1000 no, built the fence.

11:55 PM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

De acuerdo a Paul Thorsen, Ud. sr "anonimo" ha nacido en Cuba y no representa la estirpe "blanca" originada en el "Reino Unido" que ha sembrado por el mundo sociedades exitosas. Es decir, que Ud. tambien está usurpando los beneficios de este gran pais. ¿Y como lo piensa devolver?
No vaya a creer que lo estoy insultando o molestando a Ud. que es de mi propio "palo" sino que trato de ridiculizar el pensamiento de Thorsen.
La educación no asegura la falta de corrupcion. Un "estupido" o "idiota" jamas podria imaginar como hacer el mal.

2:23 AM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

Coincidimos en bastante sr. anonimo. Lo que veo tambien es que P Thorsen, no solo apunta a la inmigracion ilegal sino a la inmigracion legal, como Ud., como Andres y como muchos de los que escriben aca.
US no le debe nada a America Latina. Ni tiene porque hacerse cargo de los problemas economicos y sociales de estos paises. ¿entonces, porque vino Ud. aca? ¿o pertenece a un pais privilegiado? parece que Thorson no lo ve asi.
Dice que si Ud. es un inmigrante (incluida Cuba) e ignorante a la vez o trabajador rudo, Ud. le está robando el puesto a los negros.
Me llama la atencion, no sabia que un pais que ama la libertad y la democracia tuviera seleccionada labores para los negros, pensé que ellos podían ser Senadores, Medicos,etc.
Y si Ud. viene como inmigrante legal o ilegal siempre se entiende (Cuba incluida) y Ud. es una persona educada, culta, con profesion; Ud. viene a quitarle el trabajo a un ciudadano americano de la raza blanca.
Parece de todos modos que solo Ud. y los demas Latinos lo ofenden.
No parece ser que los Chinos, Coreanos, Alemanes, Iranies, Iraquies, Pakistanies, etc. hagan lo mismo que nosotros los Latinos. Claro es que a Thorson le molesta tambien el español.
El crée que todos ellos se adaptan a las costumbres de usa y no traen escondidas armas para tomar el pais, cambiar la bandera y cambiar la cultura.
Le parecerá eso tambien de los Judios, que se adaptan a las costumbres, que comparten a sus mujeres con otras etnias, que no se visten de otro modo que occidente. De verdad pensará que todos se adaptan al modelo estadounidense menos los Latinos??
Vamos. Ud. vive en un pais y ya debe ser ciudadano seguramente. No se sienta molesto en criticarlo, ese es el juego de la democracia. Solo en Cuba no se puede hablar. Aca si se puede hablar y opinar y criticar y mientras mas fundamento ponga en su critica, mas posibilidades tendra de ser oido por un legislador. No deje de opinar y criticar y si puede con fundamento.
Fijese Thorsen que dejo toda la historia del hombre afuera honrando al Reino Unido. Se olvido del Imperio Romano y de sus leyes, nada mas y nada menos
Porque fijese que si gritamos America para los Americanos, nos tenemos que ir todos.....Un abrazo a los Indios Seminoles, que dicho sea de paso tampoco fueron los primeros sino los....Vamos estudie.

5:09 AM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

Perdón Andrés por insistir en los comentarios pero vos sabés que solo ingreso cuando tus temas son el Terrorismo y la Inmigración.
Sr. anónimo, nacido cubano, hoy seguramente ciudadano americano. Estoy de acuerdo con Ud. en que los EEUU no le debe nada a América Latina ni que es el culpable de cuanta crisis social, económica o política.
Estoy en contra de la ignorancia, no por sí misma sino cuando viene acompañada de soberbia. Compréndame que no me refiero a Ud. sino a Mr. Thorsen.
Cuando Moisés salió de Egipto, el Reino Unido solo estaba poblado por ovejas y alguno que otro pastor. Cuando Jesús fue crucificado, el Imperio Romano de Occidente y Oriente no dejaban a nadie que no estuviera bajo sus pies. Y crearon fantásticas ciudades. No había venido aun un caudal de extranjeros a América para explicarle a los Aztecas como hacer ciudades, canales y vivir felices. España, Portugal, Alemania, Holanda, Francia no necesitaron del consejo de los hombres de la Isla del Reino Unido para ser y hacer grandes obras y ciudades, tener pintores, escultores, poetas, filósofos. Ni siquiera el Japón ni tampoco los Griegos pidieron consejo a esos grandes " anglo-exitosos ciudadanos.
Ud. pide respeto por ésta Nación. Claro que sí. Pero Ud. como ciudadano debiera saber que está en un país libre y democrático donde Ud. puede criticar y dar su opinión libremente; y si tiene la oportunidad de hacerlo con fundamente hasta es capaz que sea oído por los legisladores. Respeto no quiere decir no hablar, no opinar, no criticar. A no ser que en su corta estadía en Cuba haya adquirido el mal de Fidel. Yo no creo que sea así.
Si Ud. está de acuerdo en construir una muralla en la frontera con México, hágalo, vaya con Thorsen y cuando termine no se vayan a olvidar de hacer otra en la frontera con Canadá, mire que Terroristas entraron por ésta y no por la otra.
Si Ud. y Thorsen son ciudadanos americanos que han llegado a un nivel económico que les permite prescindir del esfuerzo físico, trate de contratar gente , albañiles, obreros de la construcción que construyan esa frontera. Dios lo ayude y tenga suerte de poder contar con la fuerza laboral de blancos norteamericanos, o negros norteamericanos. Lo más probable es que termine contratando trabajadores extranjeros latinoamericanos ilegales para que lo hagan.
Me parece muy bien que no se permitan delincuentes y máxime si son extranjeros ilegales. Me parece bien que se luche contra el Terrorismo. Pero no caiga en la confusión que suelen crear políticos para conseguir los votos suficientes para continuar en sus funciones.
Los 7.000.000.000 de dólares que Ud. va a gastar piensa quitárselos al ciudadano americano ¿de donde? ¿del presupuesto para la salud o del presupuesto para la educación o del presupuesto para armamentos?
Andrés sugirió ayudar a América Latina a achicar la diferencia de salarios para evitar la migración y hasta había una idea muy buena de organizar tours de paseo con ciudadanos americanos para que además atiendan sus necesidades de salud por mucho menos que lo que se paga en América, del Norte digo; sobretodo teniendo en cuenta la crisis en los servicios públicos, en los seguros, etc.
Puede hacer una cosa coherente, cóbrele los 3.000 a cada uno de esos 12.000.000 de inmigrantes ilegales y si no me olvide de matemáticas le da 36.000.000.000. Entonces quizá tenga la cifra necesaria para construir esa muralla al limite con México y le sobre para hacer gran parte de la otra en Canadá para evitar la infiltración de terroristas. Que idea! Y no le sacó un solo peso a un solo ciudadano Americano.
Y no le digo nada si se le ocurre hacerlos poner al día con sus impuestos, se imagina. calcule por decir solo unos. 6.000 por persona y me da 72.000.000.000 de dólares. Que buena idea!!
¿Ud. sabe que con ese dinero Ud. le compra un apartamento de dos dormitorios a todos los habitantes del Uruguay?
Yo lo apoyo, deporte a todos los delincuentes sexuales, ladrones, abusadores, molestadores, a todos.
Ud. no ha pensado en que esas personas, que por el color (?), la ignorancia (?), su cultura (?) y esa maldita idea de querer cambiar la bandera de éste país (?), podrían adquirir automóviles, pagar el seguro, comprar casas. ¿No me diga que le molesta que eso suceda? Me extraña que lo diga un Cubano cuando el cubano americano ha mostrado ser capaz de crecer y progresar y educarse en los últimos años por arriba de la media blanca americana.
Eso parece sentir Thorsen , que le quitan el trabajo, la cultura, la bandera.
Yo pienso que cuando una cultura cede a la otra es porque es la mas débil.
Y no le digo nada si Ud. con Thorsen le toma las huellas digitales a todos para tenerlos bien identificados a todos, que tranquilo se sentiría entonces.
Andrés tiene razón en su pronóstico y en su proyecto. Dígame, ¿no ha visto las camisas de marca que vienen cosidas por manos Egipcias o Tailandesas? ¿Sabe que los costureros de esas camisas que Ud. usa no cobran más de 5 dólares a la semana? Seguramente le quitan trabajo a un hombre blanco o negro ciudadano americano, pero bueno, así se reparte la riqueza.
Me imagino que Ud. Sr. anónimo habrá prohibido a sus padres hablar español en su casa y saludarse a los abrazos y preparar esos ricos arroces para no perjudicar a la cultura norteamericana.
Respetemos los colores y las culturas.
Si Ud. y Mr. Thorsen siembran odio seguro que no van a cosechar amor.


Gracias Andrés.

9:22 AM  
Blogger roberto e said...

Hatred and Bigotry have no place in civilized discourse .

Disagreement ,Agreement,ideas,
Debate,polite liveliness

that is ...what it is ..about
Eduardo Sometimes I agree with you sometimes I disagree but you are a Gentleman!!
Regards

9:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

eduardo dijo:
US no le debe nada a America Latina. Ni tiene porque hacerse cargo de los problemas economicos y sociales de estos paises...

Permítame discentir con eso. Nombro algunos ejemplos:
* US ha invadido a 13 paises de Latinoamérica.
* Ha colaborado, a través de la CIA, en un sinnúmero de golpes de estados (Chile es el caso más vergonzoso).
* A través del FMI, "ayudó" a paises en crisis con salvavidas de plomo, exigiendo, a cambio de dinero fresco , políticas que a largo plazo solo beneficiaron a sus intereses.
* Sus líderes religiosos, con vínculos innegables con los políticos, influyen en la conciencia de muchos latinoamericanos. Esto recuerda a la alianza Española con la Iglesia Católica en la conquista de América.

US tiene una visión imperialista y nuestros políticos se quieren salvar a si mismos. Nuestra culpa es no haber sido más exigentes con nuestros dirigentes.

De todos modos, creo que algo hemos aprendido. Al menos en Sud America soplan nuevos vientos. Por supuesto que falta mucho, pero vamos bien.


Saludos cordiales,

Rubén P.
Rosario - Argentina

9:37 AM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

Estimado Ruben:
Antes de comenzar, saludos a Rosario, Santa Fe, Argentina. Mi mujer es de Rosario.
Debido a que el tema en discusión se debía centrar en la opinión respecto de la utilidad o inutilidad del esfuerzo y gasto público que demandará la construcción de una muralla (la sola palabra le hará pensar en la muralla China o en le muro de Berlín) a construir en el límite entre US y México, y teniendo en cuenta que aquí opinan ciudadanos Americanos, los más interesados o afectados (según les agrade o les desagrade que ese dinero salga de sus bolsillos a cambio de no recibir inmigración ilegal); me limité fundamentalmente a atacar el comentario de Mr. Paul Thorsen debido a que él lo torció hacia un costado oscuro que se llama: "racismo". No vayas a créer que él está solo. Y te vá a asombrar la cantidad de hermanos Latínos que han olvidado, como, y para qué vinieron a éste país oponiéndose a la misma reforma migratoria que beneficiaría a inmigrantes en un muy alto porcentaje de latinos.
Vos sabés que en Argentina no hay nada que repartir como no lo hay en el resto de América Latina (Gobiernos corruptos, etc y etc.), pero en los EEUU los propios ciudadanos han sido y son complices por años de la explotación de esa gente prefiriendo mantenerlos a la sombra legal pero contratándolos sin mayores esfuerzos. La han tenido y la tienen mirandole la cara todos los días. Sabiendo perfectamente el esfuerzo que hacen transpirando la camiseta al rayo del Sol, trabajando 18 hs. si es posible, sin atención médica más que en la emergencias, firmando a la salida de un hospital un compromiso de pago de cifras astronómicas lo que significa que jamás vaya a comprar una vivienda para no perderla por embargo.
Pero te aclaro que nunca salvo raras excepciones hay ningún maltrato personal o discriminación o...pero si debo decir que la han permitido, la han aceptado, la usan a diario a esa mano de obra. Entonces me parece humano que esa gente reciba un mínimo agradecimiento.
Hubiera sido muy distinto si jamás los hubieran empleado, pero los Diarios han mostrado desde empresarios del campo hasta grandes empresas contratando personal ilegal.
¿Que les pagan menos? No lo creo, quizá en el campo. Y si les pagan lo mismo y es tan sencillo conseguir empleados americanos legales, cual es la razón de tomarlos. (porque no creas que la gente miente o inventa papeles, van de frente y dicen la verdad.
La razón es no hay gente que quiera hacer determinadas tareas y no lo digo yo. En los Angeles decía un Mexicano: "..hace 19 años que vivo acá y nunca nadie vino un amerciano blanco o negro a pedir este trabajo recogiendo tomates....".
En primer lugar, dije que US no le debe nada a América Latina porque era ajeno al tema y porque estoy seguro que ningun ciudadano americano va a reconocer una "deuda moral" como la que planteas.
Digo "deuda moral" porque todas las invasiones en su mayoría han sido también solicitadas y amparadas por grupos de poder en los paises invadidos.
Eso mismo es lo que critíco del cubano del exilio; solicitar a éste país que intervenga. Así tendrías entonces la invasión número 14 según tu estadística.
Creo y es mi más íntima convicción que una Nación debe ser modelada y recuperada por su pueblo, por sus propios ciudadanos.
En segundo lugar, ¿quien va a reconocer que un deudor no es culpable de su morosidad y que el culpable es quien le prestó el dinero? Hubiera sido necio conmigo mismo sosteniendo una falacia.
Y tercero y último la influencia "norteamericana" en la cultura de los pueblos latinos es innegable, aunque el "norteamericano piense que es el latino el que viene a desestabilizar su cultura; es más probable que terminemos todos vistiendo nike, levi's, fumando Marlboro y disfrutando de "Misión Imposible IV" antes de que EEUU baile alguna danza Azteca.
Sin ánimo de ofender a nadie, a ninguna cultura, religión o raza, he dicho mi visión que no es necesariamente la de otros.
Vargas Llosa muy a pesar nuestro dijo varias verdades de Latinoamerica. Debo asumir mi culpa y responsabilidad.

11:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Eduardo
Es lamentable ver como esta administración resuelve los problemas ATACANDO LOS EFECTOS Y NO LAS CAUSAS. Es recurrente en casi todo lo que hace, y el muro no es una excepción.

Sin dudas Bush no es un estadista.

Puntualmente en el caso del muro la causa del problema, como dijo Andrés, es la gran diferencia económica. El efecto de esa diferencia es un flujo migratorio imparable.

El problema no es nuevo y tiene que ver, desde mi punto de vista, con la política sumamente injusta que históricamente ha tenido US respecto a Latinoamérica.

Subsidios agrícolas, apoyo económico a políticos afines en elecciones, dumping, campañas de prensa, invasiones, etc. son algunos ejemplos de como US impone su agenda y condiciones por las buenas o por las malas.

Que gana con todo esto? Más poder económico.

Cual es el costo? Migración.

Saludos,

Rubén P.
Rosario - Argentina

PD: Si tu esposa es rosarina seguramente debe ser muy linda ;-)

10:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

from Paul Thorsen
PThorsen240@aol.com


Hey anonymous, our "invasions" of Latin Americans were because you people begged us to invade. Many times we said no:

From "A Brief History of the Caribbean", by Jan Rogozinski, copyright 1992
page 229
In August 1906, Estrada's Liberal opponent, Jose Miguel Gomez led an insurrection that quickly spread over the islands. Estrada, who had only tiny army, appealed for help to President Theodore Roosevelt. Roosevelt, refusing to intervene, instead sent William Howard Taft, the secretary of war, to negotiate a compromise.


further, the Panamanian people begged us to come in and get the hell rid of Noriega. Something we never would have had to do had the USA not been sold out by Hispanick servicemen in the service of the USA:

From "Inside Central America", by Clifford Krauss, copyright 1991.
page 264
...Dade County, Florida, and federal police agents were prepared to arrest Noriega in June 1979, when Noriega was scheduled to change planes at the Miami airport for a flight to Washington where he was to meet with Pentagon officials. Incredibly, US military personnel based in Panama scotched the plan by warning Noriega of the trap.

10:24 PM  
Blogger LagaresH said...

The Congress called this bill "The Secure Fence Act"; I call it the Insecure Fence Stupidity. This Congress is devoid of ideas. This is another attempt by the GOP to speak to fear of their base. I agree with you that this is a BIG WASTE of taxpayers monies. The GOP Congress have their brains cinstipated.

5:58 PM  
Blogger LagaresH said...

The GOP Congress called this law "The secure fence act" I call it the insecure fence stupidity. Congress have their brains constipated. This is another stupid law!!

6:00 PM  
Blogger Lili said...

AM Mora- I know you are from San Diego, but some of your comments are a bit off- I will address them below.

One main issue I have with many of these arguments is how they are planted as one-sided issues.

___________________________________
I am also disgusted with the price people pay for illegal immigration here in the states. Cities like Van Nuys and San Ysidro are cesspools of poverty and crime because of all the illegal immigrants.
___________________________________

Excuse me, but what are you talking about when you refer to San Ysidro as- a "cesspool of poverty and crime?" Are you joking?

I grew up in San Ysidro, and the majority(I say with confidence) of the people who live there are peaceful MIDDLE CLASS Mexicans, and some Filipinos and Anglos. I do not take this comment personal, but it really makes me wonder how familiar you are with the city as a whole? I attended school there, walked home even sometimes in the evening, and NEVER had problems with anybody. I don't think you are too familir with the city.


It is far from being a cesspool of crime- I feel far safer there than I do in Downtown San Diego. If anything, SOUTH SAN DIEGO, as much as many other border towns, would fall apart without Mexicans who invest in purchasing homes, items, and spending that falls in the millions. There aren't only undocumented immigrants here, actually, I could say with confidence that most are middle class LEGAL Mexican citizens.

___________________________________
The immigrants EARN their money here but they do not spend their money here, they spend it on new roofs in Zacatecas over in Mexico.
You have these whole empty villages in Zacatecas with shiny new roofs and no people, while you have fourth world poverty in Van Nuys and Escondido and all over this coast, even though the people have are jobs. Something is wrong with this picture - it can be expressed in two words, illegal immigration. It is bad for everyone. It creates a welfare mentality in Zacatecas, where every non-productive person left home gets a new roof but produces nothing, plus lots of unearned wealth, and it puts the government to sleep, by creating a consumption culture without productivity, I can't say enough bad about this whole inhuman chattel setup of illegal immigration.
___________________________________

I would have to agree and disagree here- I do not agree that these people do not spend money here- Also, many of those homes you are talking about are ongoing projects, of investment for retirement, for home for children...they take years to finish because little is invested every few months. SOME of these homes are abandoned, but not all.

How can ANYONE live in this country and not spend money here? Especially with how materialistic this society is? It is very common for migrants to spend their money on home appliances, shoes, clothing, etc...I have yet to meet a migrant who spends no money here...many BUY MOST OF THE ITEMS HERE and send them home.

In regards to investment, you are right to a certain extent, the investment in these towns is not always productive...however, these people are working with what they have, there is not a investment/business culture ingrained in many of these areas. This is something that needs to be TAUGHT and LEARNED.

As far as the comment regarding the poverty in such areas, I would have to agree...but you also aren't taking into account the whole system that has been established, partly by the US government. The whole message that has been sent is: "you can work here, but we don't want you here." That message/recruitment began a LONG time ago, it isn't new... It has contributed to creating a culture and a system of going somwhere "temporarily" to work- but life isn't that simple, people meet others, have children, then many end up staying because of how their home towns are ignored by the Mexican govt. This system has just grown and grown over the decades...
___________________________________

Meanwhile the only thing that really works at keeping the Mexican-side crime - the mafias, the smugglers, the lowlife out of the US - is a border fence.
__________________________________
No, actually a decreased use in drugs would aid the problem as well. If the US, especially suburban/inner-city USA, would learn to control their children and stop glorifying drugs through music and movie culture, many of these problems would decrease in bordertown Mexico. There is a ultra HIGH demand for drugs that fuels this violence and movement- that CANNOT be disconnected.

The problems here increased after NAFTA when the drug route switched to LAND and ACROSS THE US-MEXICO border.

The corruption penetrated the armed services in Mexico because of the institutional weaknesses and problems that had already existed there. Instead of fixing them, more money was funneled into the military/police force to fight the "war" against drugs, while drug cartels just offered more money.

Therefore, the problem is threefold: a HUGE source of demand that continues the incentives of smuggling in drugs, the problems in the Andean region of S.A. with the production of coca geared towards this consumption(not specifically the production of coca per say), and the penetration of the drug cartels and corruption and violence at the Mexican border, in society and its weak institutions.
__________________________________
It worked in Palestine against suicide bombers, it worked in North Korea and Berlin at keeping locals in and it worked with the Great Wall of China to keep invaders out until it eventually was breached by the Mongols who took advantage of the free trade southern sung dynasty that was so focused on trade it neglected to guard against invasions. In short, fences work. So because they are effective, I support a fence.
___________________________________

you have GOT to be kidding me- how can you even compare the situations??? The problems here arise from DEMAND in the US for cheap labor and drugs, and weakened institutions in Mexico now more plagued by nepotism, corruption that drive these demands. Totally different situations and bilateral.

Totally one-sided ideas and arguments- but that is the problem with American citizens, always trying to disconnect themselves from everything.
___________________________________

But as I said, I am on the border, I live near it, I go to both sides. The people in Tijuana plead to me to not let them build that fence.
___________________________________

do you really live on the border? Were you raised your whole life here? I actually feel that I am REPRESENTATIVE of the border, I live it daily- I feel the contradictions on both sides, the agonies, everything, that tear many of us who feel this way apart.

If anything, I feel this wall is representative of the hypocrasy of this country- "I have always wanted your cheap labor, you have always filled my vices (drugs, sex, labor, markets, mineral resources), and I can pretty much do with you whatever I want."

Now however, they have the Mexican elite on their side to continue to do as they please.

I agree with other posters- its a waste of money.

11:21 PM  
Anonymous Eduardo said...

Totalmente adhiero al argumento de LILI y en contra de A.M. Mora y Leon.

La exposición de A.M. Mora y Leon se caracteriza por estar cargada de cinísmo e hipocrecia respecto de la inmigración ilegal.
"Trabajen pero no estén con nosotros" ; ¿"Ganen y gasten aquí" con qué seguridad de no ser sacados a las patadas de América y de perder todo lo que hicieron con el sudor de su cuerpo?
Trabajen aquí en lo que nosotros no hacemos, no ganen más que el mínimo, no estudien usando la silla de un ciudadano americano, no ensucien, no hablen español, no compren para sus hijos en mexico, sigan indocumentados, no tengan licencias, pero sigan trabajando aquí, no molestan pero manténganse alejados, no traigan droga para un país que no concume (70% de los alumnos universitarios de EEUU consume drogas), no tengan atención médica, no usen salas de emergencia, pero pueden trabajar en lo que nosotros no hacemos, ....
¿No es mucho cinismo e hipocrecía?
No tengan hijos, no...., y ademas no....pero pueden trabajar aquí, eso sí.

9:17 AM  
Anonymous Mousqueton said...

a.m. mora y leon:

I can certainly relate to your moral quandary when it comes to taking sides on the US/Mexico fence. I wonder if you feel the same way about building a reef so we can keep the Cubans from invading our country?

Personally, I am all in favor of the US / Mexico fence because I believe that Mexico needs protection.

On one side, the fence is not going to stop migrant workers from entering the US because there will always be entrepreneurial people in both sides of the fence willing to profit from smuggling Mexicans into the US the same way there are entrepreneurial people today smuggling Cubans into Florida.

So, to those that are concerned about a shortage of Mexican migrant workers, I say; do not worry, migration might slow down a little but you can be sure it will continue to be sound and healthy.

As for those who are against migrants, I am sorry to be the one to break the news to you but I do not think Mexican migration will stop in the near future.

I am deeply concerned though about Mexico’s security. The way I see it is that we have managed to make such a major social, political, educational, moral, healthcare and economic mess of the United States that it won’t be long before people from the US will start to invade Mexico. Cuba is also a high risk candidate for uncontrollable American migration. God forbid Castro dies because they might find themselves without a country and us with a new state.

So, for the sake of Mexico and Cuba; lets build the fence and a reef to protect those countries. Canada should be looking at the same alternative as well.

By the way a.m. mora y leon; do not loose your contacts accross the border and keep telling them that you love them because you might need those contacts pretty soon.

That, if you want to continue being a ..." yellow-haired, porcelain-skinned, non-Hispanic-heritage California-surfer-chick"...

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